Go Back   Final Fantasy XIII Forums > Fabula Nova Crystallis > Final Fantasy XIII > FFXIII Spoiler Discussion & Questions
Register Forum Rules FAQChatbox Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Jan 02 2012, 03:50 AM   #1
Jayk
Arbitrator

 Jayk's Avatar

Gil: 0 [Donate]
Default The Way People Think in FF13

I only made this account so I could have some way to talk about how I feel pertaining to a bit of logic the characters in FF13 have been using...

Before I say anything, I am loving the game and this does not change how I feel! It's just bugging me since I really like the story.

Anyway, it started with Hope and how he felt about Snow after his mother died. He said it was Snow's fault and kept that opinion for what felt like ages. Even after him and Snow made up, he still figured it was Snow's fault. Hope's mother was willing to give her life to protect her son... they were in the middle of a tragedy taking place. It was her choice to fight, and her death was not Snow's fault... so, yeah, Hope carrying on about Snow being, like, a horrible guy was really bothersome.

The same thing happened when Sazh figured out what really happened in the Euride Gorge incident, Sazh put all the blame on Vanille. Seriously? She was branded a l'Cie on a different planet, later woke up in Cocoon, and didn't know where to go. They scared the fal'Cie in Euride Gorge and the fal'Cie made a Sanctum l'Cie out of Dajh. This was not entirely Vanille's fault and it really just blows my mind how Sazh holds so much against her as if she had cursed the kid herself. If anyone were to be blamed, it should be the father who brought the kid there in the first place and didn't keep a close enough eye on him... don't point your gun at Vanille, Sazh!

Really enjoying the game and it's story though!

Last edited by Jayk; Jan 02 2012 at 07:11 AM..
Jayk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 02 2012, 05:25 AM   #2
Leaferian
Leafé, Raspatil Slayer

 Leaferian's Avatar

Gil: 1,070 [Donate]
Default

Have you actually beaten this game?

Hope says that he knows it's nobody's fault, but he had to blame SOMEONE in order to keep going on. For him to be able to keep fighting, he had to have someone to hate. Which is actually a common psychological reaction to trauma like that in the real world. His reaction is probably the most human of any FF character yet that's been faced with the death of a friend {EDIT: Or loved one}. Keep in mind also that between the time the Purge happens and Hope makes peace with his mother's death, less than 2 days have passed. That's pretty quick. When Hope and Snow made up, he gave the knife back to Lightning and even went so far as to defend Snow's actions to his father and say that it wasn't his fault. It was SNOW who continued to believe he was responsible after that make-up, insisting that Hope would be able to punish him however he saw fit if nothing he tried to do could make up for it.


And again, with Sazh. He tells Vanille that it's not her fault, that he should've been watching out for his kid and not let him run off like that. His initial anger toward Vanille is psychological shock from discovering that the girl he's been palling around with was one of the l'Cie who attacked the Gorge and caused that fal'Cie to need a protector. Also to the fact that Vanille KNEW the whole time that Dahj was Sazh's son and didn't say anything. Being out-of-character, we as players know that she spent most of that time trying to find the words to tell him. But he doesn't know that, and Vanille sure as hell didn't tell him.

As for that, though, there's a pretty heavy flaw in your logic. Euride Gorge was SAFE, if it weren't for the l'Cie. Nobody knew that there were Pulse l'Cie on Cocoon, after all, or that they were at the Gorge. A place with a Sanctum fal'Cie that's policed with what is essentially special forces? That would be one of the safest places in the world, especially in the utopia Cocoon is made out to be before the Purge. [sarcasm]But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe a father should know better than to let his child run around a place that as far as the whole planet knows is 100% safe.[/sarcasm]

Oh wait. Not.

Anyway, as someone who has taken their fair share of psychology classes, I can tell you that the characters of 13 are almost definitely the most human, the most real characters of any Final Fantasy game. If anything, their fault is getting over their issues unbelievably quick.

Last edited by Leaferian; Jan 02 2012 at 05:29 AM.. Reason: Forgot a few words at the begining of the post.
Leaferian is offline   Send a message via MSN to Leaferian Send a message via Yahoo to Leaferian Send a message via Skype™ to Leaferian Reply With Quote
Old Jan 02 2012, 06:33 AM   #3
Jayk
Arbitrator

 Jayk's Avatar

Gil: 0 [Donate]
Default

We actually agree mostly, but I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said Sazh should have kept a closer eye on his son. I only said that because he tried to blame Vanille for Dajh's fate when all she did was frighten the fal'Cie. If he was going to pin the blame on her for doing something indirectly, then he needed to have sooner realized his son ventured off without him and was then branded by the fal'Cie. I realize Sazh came around eventually, but my point was that he set out to kill her and that is a very harsh decision to have made against someone who wasn't directly responsible and was also someone who he should have known wouldn't wish something so horrible on a child.


Anyway, the characters seeming more human is one of the reasons I've come to like the story as much as I do. Looking forward to what all unfolds.

Last edited by Jayk; Jan 02 2012 at 06:37 AM..
Jayk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 02 2012, 06:44 AM   #4
Ramenzilla
oh my glob

 Ramenzilla's Avatar

Gil: 1,565 [Donate]
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayk View Post
We actually agree mostly, but I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said Sazh should have kept a closer eye on his son. I only said that because he tried to blame Vanille for Dajh's fate when all she did was frighten the fal'Cie. If he was going to pin the blame on her for doing something indirectly, then he needed to have sooner realized his son ventured off without him and was then branded by the fal'Cie. I realize Sazh came around eventually, but my point was that he set out to kill her and that is a very harsh decision to have made against someone who wasn't directly responsible and was also someone who he should have known wouldn't wish something so horrible on a child.


Anyway, the characters seeming more human is one of the reasons I've come to like the story as much as I do. Looking forward to what all unfolds.
Sazh's thoughts about killing Vanille were very temporary, and she actually invites him to shoot her but he tells her that won't change anything. I think his reaction is very justified. Before, he was blaming himself entirely for losing sigh of his son, and then he finds out that this girl he's been journeying with/protecting was responsible for Dahj turning to crystal. He realizes it wasn't her intention, but she's been a coward and it's dragged other innocent people (his son...and now himself) into a huge mess.

He comes around quickly anyway, and he didn't really have time to sufficiently analyze the details of what happened that day, but he learns that Vanille was involved and basically if it wasn't for her being there, Dahj would have been safe.

plus it's a story so they were trying to build up tension as much as possible and I think they pulled it off the best with these two characters personally.
__________________

the fifteenth cumming

Last edited by Ramenzilla; Jan 02 2012 at 06:47 AM..
Ramenzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 02 2012, 07:05 AM   #5
Jayk
Arbitrator

 Jayk's Avatar

Gil: 0 [Donate]
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramenzilla View Post
Sazh's thoughts about killing Vanille were very temporary, and she actually invites him to shoot her but he tells her that won't change anything. I think his reaction is very justified. Before, he was blaming himself entirely for losing sigh of his son, and then he finds out that this girl he's been journeying with/protecting was responsible for Dahj turning to crystal. He realizes it wasn't her intention, but she's been a coward and it's dragged other innocent people (his son...and now himself) into a huge mess.

He comes around quickly anyway, and he didn't really have time to sufficiently analyze the details of what happened that day, but he learns that Vanille was involved and basically if it wasn't for her being there, Dahj would have been safe.

plus it's a story so they were trying to build up tension as much as possible and I think they pulled it off the best with these two characters personally.
Once again, I realize Sazh came around to his senses eventually.

But, I just can't agree that Vanille was responsible for what happened. They all happened to be there at the same time. The kid ventured off and was branded when the fal'Cie became frightened. It was all a matter of timing. I see how he can be angry, but there would be no justice in killing a person who wasn't directly responsible, and we all know he came around to realizing this. Putting the fault on Vanille in this situation is a very simplistic form of thinking.

I'm unsure where you're coming from since your points have already been realized, but as for your opinion that Sazh's reaction was justified...even he would disagree with you.

Last edited by Jayk; Jan 02 2012 at 07:08 AM..
Jayk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 02 2012, 07:41 AM   #6
Leaferian
Leafé, Raspatil Slayer

 Leaferian's Avatar

Gil: 1,070 [Donate]
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayk View Post
But, I just can't agree that Vanille was responsible for what happened. They all happened to be there at the same time. The kid ventured off and was branded when the fal'Cie became frightened. It was all a matter of timing. I see how he can be angry, but there would be no justice in killing a person who wasn't directly responsible, and we all know he came around to realizing this. Putting the fault on Vanille in this situation is a very simplistic form of thinking.
Actually, you need to stop saying they just frightened the fal'Cie. They were going to KILL it. We know, out-of-character, that this was Fang's idea and that Vanille didn't initially agree, but Sazh doesn't know that. Sazh only knows what Nabaat tells him, which is that Vanille tried to kill the fal'Cie and that Dahj was only made a l'Cie to so the fal'Cie could protect itself. It's not simplistic thinking, Vanille was blatantly and deliberately demonized by Nabaat in an attempt to make Sazh kill her. And again, Vanille didn't open her mouth to the contrary or try to explain herself. Also, you need to stop saying "eventually". The time between when Sazh pointed his guns at Vanille and when he said that killing a kid is unforgivable and all that is less than ten minutes COUNTING Eidolon battle.

And here, let's put it into blank, blunt realistic terms. If you and another person threatened to shoot a man on the street who was in a position of power and he panicked, then proceeded to use the nearest person as a shield to protect himself you WOULD be responsible. Yes, the man who selfishly used another person to defend his life would be just as responsible, but that doesn't remove your culpability. And in the case of the fal'Cie, it is literally unable to do anything to defend itself but make l'Cie and it can't run away. While I think it's more Fang's fault than anyone else's because she was the one who brandished her weapon first (although Vanille did as well), we can still argue it's Vanille's fault in the first place.

The only reason Fang suggested they attack the fal'Cie was because she thought it would bring back their memories of whatever their Focus was. Vanille, however, knew what their Focus was the entire time and lied because she didn't want to go through with it. If she had been honest with Fang at any point, the woman would not have felt the need to go after the Euride fal'Cie on that day. And even moreso, if she'd actually been honest with Sazh while they traveled then he wouldn't have been susceptible to Nabaat's selective speech. He would already have known about it, and I doubt he would've been half as angry if it came from her.


Again, though. Ten minutes, max, being generous, between [/Points gun at] and "Killing you wouldn't be right."
Leaferian is offline   Send a message via MSN to Leaferian Send a message via Yahoo to Leaferian Send a message via Skype™ to Leaferian Reply With Quote
Old Jan 02 2012, 05:57 PM   #7
Jayk
Arbitrator

 Jayk's Avatar

Gil: 0 [Donate]
Default

They did only frighten the l'Cie. Sure, they were going to attack it... but, the fal'Cie just sensed their presence and snatched Dajh.

Other than that, I apologize for my continued defense of my claims against Sazh. I wasn't aware yet that Vanille actually knew their focus the whole time.
Jayk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 02 2012, 10:50 PM   #8
Leaferian
Leafé, Raspatil Slayer

 Leaferian's Avatar

Gil: 1,070 [Donate]
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayk View Post
They did only frighten the l'Cie. Sure, they were going to attack it... but, the fal'Cie just sensed their presence and snatched Dajh.
Bzzzt, wrong.
They were both in Euride for quite a while before the fal'Cie freaked out, the being's terror was a direct response to Fang's saying "The fal'Cie, let's SMASH it!" and the pair of them brandishing their weapons. It grabbed Dajh the moment it realized they were hostile, not the moment it realized they were there. Vanille even said that if they hadn't tried to attack the fal'Cie none of this would've happened to Dajh, so there's straight from the horse's mouth even if you don't want to believe what I just said. [/Shrugs] Direct result, I'm sorry. It was not an "Oh noes, someone's there!" it was an "Ohshi- They're going to kill me!".
Leaferian is offline   Send a message via MSN to Leaferian Send a message via Yahoo to Leaferian Send a message via Skype™ to Leaferian Reply With Quote
Old Jan 04 2012, 09:41 PM   #9
Saiyora-Saga
Artist

 Saiyora-Saga's Avatar

Gil: 310 [Donate]
Default

We can all agree here that the only character that has issues is Vanille.

Vanille wakes up from crystal slumber.
Fang says, "Ugh, feel like a drunk-I dont remember shi-"

Vanille, remembering EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED BEFORE THEY WERE PUT TO SLEEP, LIES TO HER PARTNER AND SAYS SHE DOESNT REMEMBER.

Okay seriously, why would you do that? Knowing full well it wouldn't fix anything and that your partner would want to remember everything to make sure its done and over with.
PLUS, you would have saved everyone a ton of questions and time if you would have just told the truth from the beginning instead of being a dumb girl thinking that lying was going to save people.

-Fang- "I can't remember what happened in the past... but I know we were supposed to destroy Cocoon. We need to do something about your mark, yo. I think if I complete my focus it will save you."

"Ya-by the way guys. We're supposed to destroy Cocoon if we want to complete our focus."

I guess there wouldn't have been a story, but... Vanille just gets under my skin with that.
Saiyora-Saga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 04 2012, 11:40 PM   #10
Leaferian
Leafé, Raspatil Slayer

 Leaferian's Avatar

Gil: 1,070 [Donate]
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saiyora-Saga View Post
We can all agree here that the only character that has issues is Vanille.

Vanille wakes up from crystal slumber.
Fang says, "Ugh, feel like a drunk-I dont remember shi-"

Vanille, remembering EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED BEFORE THEY WERE PUT TO SLEEP, LIES TO HER PARTNER AND SAYS SHE DOESNT REMEMBER.

Okay seriously, why would you do that? Knowing full well it wouldn't fix anything and that your partner would want to remember everything to make sure its done and over with.
PLUS, you would have saved everyone a ton of questions and time if you would have just told the truth from the beginning instead of being a dumb girl thinking that lying was going to save people.

-Fang- "I can't remember what happened in the past... but I know we were supposed to destroy Cocoon. We need to do something about your mark, yo. I think if I complete my focus it will save you."

"Ya-by the way guys. We're supposed to destroy Cocoon if we want to complete our focus."

I guess there wouldn't have been a story, but... Vanille just gets under my skin with that.
This. I mean, I know it made sense for the story and it DOES make her a more "real" person, but godfuck that chick his isssuuuuueeessss. Like that optional scene, where she goes to Hope "Well we totally promised to come see this together, right? No? Huh. I guess I've just lied so much that I've lost my grip on reality derp."

When I watched that scene, my reaction was "OH MY GOD, THERE ARE PILLS FOR THAT YOU CRAZY PINK BITCH."

...But then I was okay again because the fathering type in me squees every time she does something adorable and childish.
> w>;
Leaferian is offline   Send a message via MSN to Leaferian Send a message via Yahoo to Leaferian Send a message via Skype™ to Leaferian Reply With Quote
Old Jan 05 2012, 12:46 PM   #11
Saiyora-Saga
Artist

 Saiyora-Saga's Avatar

Gil: 310 [Donate]
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaferian View Post
This. I mean, I know it made sense for the story and it DOES make her a more "real" person, but godfuck that chick his isssuuuuueeessss. Like that optional scene, where she goes to Hope "Well we totally promised to come see this together, right? No? Huh. I guess I've just lied so much that I've lost my grip on reality derp."

When I watched that scene, my reaction was "OH MY GOD, THERE ARE PILLS FOR THAT YOU CRAZY PINK BITCH."

...But then I was okay again because the fathering type in me squees every time she does something adorable and childish.
> w>;
The parenting skills in me makes me want to backhand a child.
Saiyora-Saga is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
ff13, people


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT. The time now is 12:24 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
FinalFantasy-XIII.net © - All content is property of its respective owners

eXTReMe Tracker
FinalFantasy-XIII.net - Archive